First talk Why should someone look at your pictures? Why should someone look at pictures anyway? To say it short, pictures do something with people and people do something with pictures. What is the viewer doing with the pictures? If pictures are kept for a long while in a cellar or a depot it is not good for them. The other extreme is being photographed digitally: I don't look myself, it's my camera that "looks" for me and I see it on the screen. That is how millions of tourists "see" the world nowadays. It takes away a lot of power from pictures, holy places or churches or the like. If pictures are viewed with a tender look or amazed with a deep interest it is good for them, refreshing. It's even better if someone is including a picture in his life, there may be a real giving and taking to and fro. And what does the picture with the viewer? There you may have different experiences. Many years ago I was able to perceive how people stood denuded in front of great works, then it were pictures by Jawlensky. How do you mean? They are deprived their facade, they reveale themselves totally, like people an a stage or in front of an altar where they also cannot hide themselves. They show themselves naked. A real work of art is like scales where you are maybe weighed and found wanting. What do you think would be an attitude that could cope with? Unbiasedness is maybe the most important like a sound child is marveling unbias at a butterfly. A grown up is often ready when he has found the right expression, combined with some prejudices and an opinion like: butterlies are so gorgeous. Unbiasedness means to throw behind all my knowledge, my prejudices, my opinions and look at a butterfly like for the very first time. Then he could become my teacher. And why should someone contemplate paintings from you? It is not from my, it is more through me. As the viewer I must throw behind me all opinions, intentions, abilities and the like. I have to become an organ for the forces that would like to speak through me. For some astonishing, I also throw behind my feelings, I'm not my feeling. I only silently give way. Does it call for a somehow educated viewer? Not really, but it could become a voyage of discovery if the viewer throws behind ballast. Second talk Last time we have talked about what a viewer does with a picture and what a picture does with a viewer What do you do that a painting comes into being? I research on creation, since many years I have instructions by leaves. Infinite they teach us about the secret of the liquid, the liquid with the airy, with the fiery, with the solid. Not two leaves are the same let's say on a silver birch. That is power of variation. Imagine to variate a little each morning how to say: Good morning, or how to brush your hair. You can feel the difference, if you belong to the fluid, the forming the everchanging like the clouds or if you belong to the commited, steady, who became matter of routine. The way is always from the liquid to the more firm also in embryology. I've started with a research on seeds and to my great surprise I met the most different qualities of warmth for example: plum, olive, raisin, almond, melon, wheat, rose, oak, juniper... I learned to become sensitive for as many nuances and differences of warmth as there are in coulors and I had no idea of it before. The biggest surprise has been that the same seed changes qualities during the wintertime: before Christmas and after Christmas and some seeds became sort of restless, since the middle of January I was really amazed. If there are twenty colonies of bees each bee finds her beehive by the different qualities of warmth not the temperature, isn't it beautiful? That is really astonishing and I have mever even thought about it. Do you do all this for yourself? No in my courses and with patients we do practise these things. Facing the power of variation or alteration something might start to move in thinking, feeling, willing. Also we try to go further into the powers of metamorphosis and inversion. In altering, changing, turning inside out you may meet the primeval processes of creation at work in the world and inside oneself and the interplay in between. Now, I did not quite get what all this has to do with the coming into being of your paintings? Well, in this way and hundreds of other I am trying to open myself and to become able to perceive the difference between one day to the other. This is how I try to prepare the soil so that something creative may thrive on it. Or I am trying to become a sort of sounding board through which all the different powers may express themselves. Has it been a problem for you that you are having a relatively late recommencement? No. I was painting and drawing only very rarely during twentyone years, because of our five children. But I've always been a developing artist in the arts of relationship, education, cooking, gardening, everyday art and music. I've always created everything and I've changed myself totally because I have been in the situation of learning permanently. A wonderful process of maturity that is still going on. What has been the most important about this process? Maybe the most important is I need no longer take my person or Ego as serious as when was young. My person, my feeling, knowledge or experiences in creative processes are irrelevant. Do you mean something what was named to contribute to the work in former times? No, that is also superfluous. Maybe I myself am the most surprised what comes out of painting at the end.